The head of the Nevada Commission defends Herb Dean's work at UFC 143.
Feb 17, 2012 - Referee Herb Dean was widely criticized after UFC 143 for two decisions he made in two separate fights: His decision to deduct two points from Alex "Bruce Leroy" Caceres after his second low blow of one fight, and his decision not to deduct any points from Josh Koscheck for an eye poke after being warned.
But the man who oversees Dean and the other referees in Nevada has no problem with Dean's calls.
Nevada State Athletic Commission Executive Director Keith Kizer told MMAFighting.com that he asked Dean why he took two points -- rather than one point -- away from Caceres for kicking Edwin Figueroa in the groin, and Kizer was satisfied that Dean had made a well-reasoned decision under the rules of MMA.
"That's something I asked him about afterward," Kizer said. "We went through that at the post-fight meeting for UFC 143 and he explained himself from that point of view. It was a situation where [Caceres] had done it, [Dean] gave him a hard warning, the low blow wasn't just an accident -- it was gross negligence, to use a legal term. Sometimes accidental fouls happen, but he thought the fighter was being very negligent or very sloppy, so he gave him a very hard warning and then very soon afterward he did it again. This was a straight-on kick where the fighter had a lot of control over it, he kicked him very hard, the guy was very hurt, you could hear the kick, you could see his reaction when he landed the kick so you could see he was really hurt. The kick was one he could very easily control and the fighter didn't seem to care."
From Kizer's perspective, the most important thing is that Dean had a clear rationale for taking two points away, which was that Caceres's kick appeared to be either intentional or at the very least in complete disregard of the prior warning, and that Figueroa was hurt by it.
"What I liked from that was Herb's thinking process makes sense," Kizer said. "It caused injury -- I didn't know if it was intentional but it was as near as it could be without being intentional -- either willful disregard or reckless disregard of the rules and the warning."
Kizer said he routinely talks to referees after fights to find out what their rationale was for decisions they made in the cage, and the most important thing to Kizer is that the referees show they had a logical thought process, based on the rules of the sport, for what they did.
"It's the same with a referee when I ask, 'Why'd you stop a fight or why didn't you stop a fight?' I want them to be able to explain themselves in a way that makes sense," Kizer said. "If Herb had only taken one point away I wouldn't have had a problem with that, either. If he hadn't even taken one point that's a situation where I would have said, 'Why didn't you take a point away?' The wrong answer would have been to ignore it, but the right answer could have been either one point or two points. Herb asked, How much damage was done? A lot. Was this something he could have controlled? Yes, it was a straight on kick. Had I given him a warning? Yes, and he didn't seem to care."
Kizer acknowledged that deducting two points in a three-round fight is an incredibly costly penalty, especially to Caceres in that fight: Caceres lost by split decision, with the two judges who ruled against him scoring it 28-27. If Dean had only deducted one point the fight would have been a draw, and if Dean hadn't deducted any points Caceres would have won by unanimous decision. But Kizer stressed that while it is rare, the rules allow for a two-point deduction.
"If you want to take two points away you can as a ref, you have that discretion. It's very rarely used -- I think it was only Herb's second time ever," Kizer said.
As for not taking a point away from Koscheck, Kizer said that didn't strike him as a bad call.
"I didn't ask him about that," Kizer said. "That wasn't something where I thought to myself, 'What's Herb doing?' Never in that round did I think Herb should take a point away."
Seeing Dean deduct two points in one fight for a foul following a warning, and then not deduct any points in another fight for a foul following a warning seemed inconsistent, but Kizer said each fight needs to be refereed independently, and refs aren't in the business of basing a point deduction in one fight on a decision they made in a previous fight.
"I don't think that if a ref takes a point away in one fight he has to do it in another," Kizer said. "That's not the case."
So while some fans didn't like Dean's work in either fight, the man who functions as Dean's boss when he's working in Nevada thinks Dean was right on.
37 comments
Comments
Expect fighter to appear to be in more pain in the future
Well now that fighters know their apparent pain level is a factor, you can expect a lot more people to really play up their pain. Most fighters cringe and step back and hold their junk when they get kicked. Figeuroa flopped both times and gave an Oscar-worthy acting performance, writhing on the floor and complainint, so the ref was extra harsh in his penalty. It was pathetic.
by Shifty-Eyed Dog on Feb 17, 2012 9:33 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, that's an important point
The rules call for a two-point deduction for an intentional foul causing injury, but it’s tough to say right there on the spot what constitutes an “injury.” Obviously the ringside doctor is there to stop the fight if it’s a serious injury, but it’s tough for the ref to determine what constitutes an injury that the fighter can fight through.
by Michael David Smith on Feb 17, 2012 9:43 AM EST up reply actions
Must be nice
To have the psychic ability to know how much pain one feels after successive ball shots. Seriously, you should find a way to turn that skill, one no other human on the planet possesses, into a career.
by Rich Hansen on Feb 17, 2012 9:49 AM EST up reply actions
ok, Captain Sarcastic - you're actually reinforcing my point
so youre admitting that Herb Dean (or any ref) also could not have that ability. You’re supporting my point. It’s going to start coming down to how much the fighter plays it up. And to think there arent fighters who will completely use that is naive.
by Shifty-Eyed Dog on Feb 17, 2012 9:56 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I totally agree
Figeroa was very blatantly over reacting and I thought it was pathetic too. Kizer is an idiot and Herb was fooled. I like Herb Dean but he has made some poor calls lately and I would have respected the NSAC more if they at least acknowledged it but I am not surprised. Consistently inconsistent and arrogantly self assured.
by rongbips on Feb 17, 2012 10:49 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I wish I could rec this twice just for that last line.
Hendo/Bisping:
"He hit him so hard that even gravity got scared. Bisping hung in mid-air for a moment while gravity screamed at inertia, "Did you see that shit!?" Then, after a high five, the two universal forces quit screwing around and yanked Bisping's limp body onto the floor." - Seanbaby
"You are banned from bloodyelbow because Roth was being too nice and your picture" -Tim Burke
by superfknmario__ on Feb 17, 2012 8:32 PM EST up reply actions
He needs a new cup
Through a cup it should never hurt that much unless it was riding high and your balls were hanging out the bottom to be blunt. The side kicks he ate aren’t even the right angle to cause major damage.
by SmaryJerry on Feb 18, 2012 5:25 AM EST up reply actions
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by bobby123 on Feb 19, 2012 4:23 AM EST up reply actions
"I didn't ask him about that,"
Because an eye poke from Kos is just part of the fight.
by DocCassidy on Feb 17, 2012 10:05 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
I think not taking a point from Kos
is almost worse than taking the 2 from Cacares.
His point was that after a hard warning he kicked again with disregard so it was justified. Ok, I’ll buy that.
Kos was warned as well and stuck an open hand right back into Pierce’s eye.
It just seems inconsistent to me. Don’t remember if Kos actually poked him the first time, but he was still warned and then actually did it. What’s the point of a warning if the follow up doesn’t result in a point deduction?
"Progress lies not in enhancing what is, but in advancing toward what will be." - Kahlil Gibran
by merryprankster on Feb 17, 2012 10:19 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
I agree with you
I actually think any foul that comes after a warning for that specific foul should be met with a point deduction. Refs are inconsistent on that.
One thing Kizer mentioned to me that I didn’t put in this post is that he has talked to refs about being more consistent with grabbing the fence. A lot of times refs will repeatedly warn a fighter about grabbing the fence but not deduct a point even if they keep doing it. I’ve seen some really blatant ones where the only reason a fighter doesn’t get taken down is that he’s grabbing the fence. That should be a point deduction and maybe even a restart from the ground in the position they would have been in if the takedown had been successful.
by Michael David Smith on Feb 17, 2012 10:35 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
oh yeah
I can’t recall the last time someone was deducted a point for fence grabbing. What Aldo did in the Mendes fight should be an automatic point deduction. Its one thing when guys are in the clinch against the cage but this was super blatant.
There were a few fence grabs Wednesday too.
I understand it as a reaction to falling but refs are constantly smacking guys hands and repeating “don’t grab the fence.”
"Progress lies not in enhancing what is, but in advancing toward what will be." - Kahlil Gibran
by merryprankster on Feb 17, 2012 11:19 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Last significant fight I remember
Was Tito vs rashad. Aldo deserved a deduction but It wouldn’t have mattered anyway. Mendes had aldo in the exact same position seconds later, got the td and jose immediately got back to his feet. I do like mds idea of a restart on the ground if a TD is blatantly stopped by a fence grab. In that case maybe mendes makes it another round or 2 before getting KOed
by kanienkeha009 on Feb 17, 2012 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
On a side note
Instant replay is needed. In this case Yamasaki could have used a replay to approximately determine where the TD would have ended up
by kanienkeha009 on Feb 17, 2012 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
agreed
It’ll be interesting to see what rule changes are implemented over the years
"Progress lies not in enhancing what is, but in advancing toward what will be." - Kahlil Gibran
by merryprankster on Feb 17, 2012 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
Aldo is a cheat
He cheats and is weak
by rakebackbastard.com on Feb 17, 2012 9:09 PM EST up reply actions
lol
new to MMA?.. or are you just a big fan of men laying on top of men FTW?
Hendo/Bisping:
"He hit him so hard that even gravity got scared. Bisping hung in mid-air for a moment while gravity screamed at inertia, "Did you see that shit!?" Then, after a high five, the two universal forces quit screwing around and yanked Bisping's limp body onto the floor." - Seanbaby
"You are banned from bloodyelbow because Roth was being too nice and your picture" -Tim Burke
by superfknmario__ on Feb 18, 2012 11:50 PM EST up reply actions
On one hand ...
the time he took to recover seemed excessive, but those were hard shots to the cojones. 2 points? i don’t know.. Dean warned Kos for pawing the face, which ended up becoming an eye poke. Kos has done that before,the fact an eye-poke can end a career,perhaps that should be considered a more serious foul.
by bezzarguy on Feb 17, 2012 11:00 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
That's the thing about eye pokes
An eye poke could lead to a detached retina and even blindness in the injured eye. It’s very serious. And although eye pokes are almost always accidental, fighters who use an open hand to paw at their opponents know full well that they’re risking poking their opponents’ eyes. And if they do it, especially after a warning, they should have at least one point deducted.
by Michael David Smith on Feb 17, 2012 11:07 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Totally agree...
Johnson had had recent eye surgery when Kosheck eye-poked him.He always has hands open it seems. Serious stuff……….thanks for the link.
by bezzarguy on Feb 17, 2012 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
As a follow up
Former NFL player Don Mosebar is a cautionary tale on how serious the consequences can be. An eye poke ended his career.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/1996/08/01/SP44561.DTL
by Michael David Smith on Feb 17, 2012 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
It was a totally fair call
I would think BruceLeeRoy didn’t mean to kick Fig in the balls but he did it twice after being strongly warned. Unless Fig couldn’t continue 2 points was a logical choice of action.
Twitter @MaZZM
http://www.mazzznet.com/
by MaZZacare on Feb 17, 2012 11:17 AM EST reply actions
It's all about consistency
I dont remember the fight, but toward the end of the WEC i watched a fight where a guy got nailed…HARD… in the balls not once, not twice, but THREE times, and it was a one-point deduction for the second, and one for the third. The kicker ended up still winning because it didnt go to decision. Of course it didnt – he had demolished the dude’s nuts!
That one should have been a disqualification, or maybe one point for the second kick, and another two points for the third kick. But no… it’s all so arbitrary.
by Shifty-Eyed Dog on Feb 17, 2012 12:13 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
WEC 49, Kamal Shalorus vs. Jamie Varner
The main event ended in a draw. Shalorus only got one point deducted despite kicking Varner in the groin three times:
http://www.mmafighting.com/2010/06/20/kamal-shalorus-jamie-varner-fight-to-disappointing-draw
And you’re right, consistency is the issue. Why did Shalorus lose one point for three groin kicks, while Caceres lost two points for two groin kicks?
by Michael David Smith on Feb 17, 2012 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
hmm… yeah, that must be it. fuzzy memory, i guess. I just remembered multiple groin shots (and some borderline ones earlier in the fight) and the fighter not being punished nearly enough, and I remember him not losing the fight as a result of the penalty. I guess it did go to decision, but was just a draw and not a win.
by Shifty-Eyed Dog on Feb 17, 2012 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
Keith Kizer in an idiot
Seriously why does this guy have to be the one to make these kind of decisions? He’s an inconsistent moron who is flushing the whole legitimacy of this sport down the drain… How can this sport be taken seriously when the rule system can’t even be figured out?? How can Kizer sit there and say he’s fine with how Dean handled those two fights Dean deducted two points for a situation that always warrants one point deduction, and then ignored the same type of situation in the Koscheck fight. Kizer makes himself sound like an idiot, and if I could, I would kick him in da nuts lol
by Rob2507 on Feb 17, 2012 12:28 PM EST reply actions
Kizer's BS justification and inconsistency here is worse than Dean's!
It’s ridiculous that he would justify Dean’s two point deduction with this,
, and then not see the Koscheck pokes (yes, I said pokes) the same way! He clearly poked him, Pierce reacted, Dean warned Kos, then Kos did it again, Pierce reacted again, and still no deduction. WTF? That’s not being negligent or sloppy? That’s the very f—king definition of negligent and sloppy! He’s pawing at his face with an open hand for f—k sake!Like others said, this now opens the doors for fighters to play up fouls to get the calls. Good job, NSAC!
by JitsMasta on Feb 17, 2012 12:34 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I don't care about all refs following the same guildlines exactly the same
But if there’s one thing I do not like, it’s a ref who isn’t consistent with their calls. If an Ump is going to call the game this way with a narrow strike zone, he has to call it for the whole game. If he is allowing the zone to widen, he has to be consistent with it. I do not think the 2 points were justified and I can’t think of a single time where it was necessary. While you don’t want to leave fights in the hands of judges, you hate to see the fights outcome fall into the hands of a ref in this manner.
by Bigs- on Feb 17, 2012 1:28 PM EST reply actions
The two-point deduction, I can accept.
But to not take a point away from Koscheck for something that could result in, like MDS said, an extremely serious injury? That seems pretty iffy.
Follow @shaunalshatti
by Shaun Al-Shatti on Feb 17, 2012 2:15 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I think Herb is great and all but what he did
wit h KOS is ridiculous. He definitely shouldve took 2 points from him too
I’m not resting until I’m officially Anderson Silva status.- Jon "Bones" Jones
by AfroSamurai on Feb 17, 2012 2:16 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Herb is right
Traditional style kickers, especially Jeet Kune Do, are highly proficient with their kicks.
The first one was an accident, which was arguably negligent. The fact that he’s a kick expert, and especially since it was the loudest nut shot I’ve ever heard, a strong warning is reasonable.
The second, however, was thrown at a STATIONARY TARGET in the ABSENCE OF AN EXCHANGE and after a strong warning.
In Herb, we trust.
by Art Jimmerson's Glove on Feb 17, 2012 2:59 PM EST reply actions
I had no problem with the 2 points deduction for Caceres, it obviously impaired his opponent very much. It really pissed me off that Kos didn’t get one point deduction after he had already been officially warned though. That was some shitty reffing.. compiled with the shitty judging, Pierce got robbed that night IMHO.
"I want to tell me what you see, let's go ahead and see by the fight, what you saw, in the ring."
by Horselover Fat on Feb 17, 2012 7:10 PM EST reply actions
fighters react to nut shots as if they are wearing no protection at all
Did you notice Figaroa asking dean if he was going to take away a point? He must have been delighted his acting skills gaarnered him 2 points! Should have been a moot point as Bruce won all 3 rounds.
by littlebillywalters on Feb 17, 2012 8:39 PM EST reply actions
Bruce is a cock should have lost 3 points
by rakebackbastard.com on Feb 17, 2012 9:10 PM EST reply actions
I wanna see Bruce kick u in the face lol
by Rob2507 on Feb 17, 2012 11:02 PM EST reply actions
of course the N-SAC is going to rule in favor of balls
in the case of MMA kicks vs balls
what do you think the “N” stands for in NSAC ?
They’re just taking care of their own.
Being "The People's Champ" is like being a Special Olympics Gold Medalist
It just means that a bunch of retards think that you're the best
by Clark Griswald on Feb 18, 2012 1:37 PM EST reply actions
Koscheck "syndrom"
Its sad but Josh Koschek’s is one of the early “pioneers” , which uses the weak mma juding/reffering for his opputinuty. And the rly sad thing about this is that hes making a lot of money with that.
by Fatman88 on Feb 20, 2012 7:18 AM EST reply actions
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